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P:  11/4/2009 4:57:46 AM
chinapassage

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Total Posts: 315
Last Post: 5/26/2012
Member Since: 11/8/2008

i was wondering if those that have read Nealls books would care to give a review of the different books for those of us considering purchasing ---
 
for example the one on Vibration i am attracted too but would there be better ones to spend my time with ---
 
ie... if you were only purchasing one which one and why ---
is it non-discretionary type trading or severe user discretion needed ... etc ...
which books would have more trading ideas in them and which would be more dealing with the mental aspects of trading ---
 
these are just a few questions i have running around in my head and i am sure other potential buyers would be interested as well ....
 
would really appreciate as many comments as there are people willing to give them --- of course dont have to reveal the golden keys but would be great to hear some more book reviews.

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/4/2009 4:57:46 AM   |   IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post


 There are 67 replies to this message.  There are 20 replies on this page.

P: 11/4/2009 6:51:37 AM
lolero

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chinapassage,

i have all but the key to the secrets. the secrets of trading and making money is, as the name says, about trading ideas and the mental aspect of performing them. the other books are more about market interpretation and forecasting. i would say that the material requires a fair amount of user discretion.

the books cover the great amount of research on esoteric forecasting tools that he has performed and are well written.

i hope this helps.

regards,

lolero

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P: 11/4/2009 3:49:45 PM
chinapassage

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thanks
 
if you could only read one of them which one would you get?

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P: 11/4/2009 4:38:29 PM
gfish

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a better question may be which should i get first.
 
 
keep in mind that what you might want is different from someone else. 
ask yourself what you want from the series and you may be better able to formulate a specific question.

  g
<><

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/4/2009 4:38:29 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/5/2009 12:08:02 AM
chinapassage

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well to be honest i could just read books on the market just to read as i enjoy that the most ---
 
but in the end i gotta make some money to pay for the books i really like -- and i am finding the more i persue this game the more the books cost   so i have decided i need to get an ABC book on how to make money --- your (gfish) template is great --- but there is a bit of user discretion needed---ie stops money managment risk vs reward etc... 
 
so i was thinking there might be something that either gave me the ABC of things...sounds maybe like secrets of trading may talk about --- or something that had nothing to do with price that would filter signals which sounds like the Vibration book would deal more with ...
 
either way i would eventually like to buy them all   but everytime i see a great book i want to buy it --- just the ones here cost quite a bit more ...but i am sure the potential return is greater... (to help navigate which books) it would be good to hear from people that have actually used the ideas in the books to consistently see the market in a clear way.
 
i can only think a discussion along these lines helps increase book sales as well -- so its a win/win situation. 
 
i know when i first came on the board i searched all through the boards looking for reviews couldnt find much and so started buying --- well it would have been nice to find a thread where you can see from user experience what books work to make money and which ones are great research but a lot of discretion needed ... like ME great book for research purposes but ultimately a lot of user discretion ((really really like that the most to be honest)) but after a bit of time i think an ABC book might be good for my brain right now
 
 

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P: 11/5/2009 12:35:26 PM
neall

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Your request is similar to many who ask me what book I would recommend. I used to try to figure it out by asking questions and getting to know where they were and what they wanted, but it really doesn’t work that way. I am me and you are you and neither one of us can know for the other.

When I started training for a marathon, I got a lot of running books and read up on training , strategy, diet all that stuff, it was what you would call the abc’s. I don’t think we can really find all the abc’s that are available. We must start running to know for our self, to know our own body type, personality, and if we really want it. DESIRE has to be found and taken into consideration. When I knew I wanted to run the marathon I looked forward to paying the price, whatever it turned out to be. Until I was SURE (clear and focused) I used the price (mental, physical, monetary, etc) as a boundary to keep me away from it. It’s more important to make up ones mind before looking outside of oneself for it.

When you are ready for a book you will decide from within, not from others experiences. Others will tell you to get it and you aren’t ready for it, you haven’t really made up your mind you want it. Get ready by aligning your desires and beliefs into what you want. Ask the question what do I want and see that clearly and it will be your answer, not somebody giving me their abcs.

The universe will accommodate the clear desire in ABC, XYZ, QRS, any pattern we WANT. It isn’t the pattern the universe cares about, it is the clarity of the WANT that it asks for, that it demands, and it aligns THAT in a fertile womb of infinite possibility and it manifests. It is a done deal when desire is real.

We all know when we have made up our mind for something and we are going to get it "no matter what, at any cost". That is the key, make up the mind and it will be.

If you want my suggestion I would tell you not to get any book until you know what you want (beyond the book)!

Peaceful journey my friend,

neall

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P: 11/5/2009 1:20:27 PM
gfish

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(((((((gong)))))))))
 
i hear the buzzing of bees and the ethereal ringing of bells.
thank you master.
 
 

  g
<><

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P: 11/5/2009 6:30:11 PM
chinapassage

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"paying the price, whatever it turned out to be" --- i agree --- but you gotta start somewhere though --- and since i have "X" amount of dollars currently --- i can purchase "X" amount of resources ---

anyway just looking for book reviews not asking for the holy grail .... yet

thank you though for your thoughtful replies... 



Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/5/2009 6:30:11 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 7:07:32 AM
gunslinger

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Hi C,
 
I'm fairly new to trading so my opinion probably isn't worth much. However, I felt I wanted to comment.
 
I have only one of Neall's books which is " Secrets of Forecasting Using Wave 59 - Tools".
 
It is easly to read and very helpful as it tells you how to use some of the tools at the right hand side of the W59 screen. Don't know though if that's what you actually want.
 
I can understand your wish for an ABC book , me too, but I don't think it actually exists. All are versions of other people's trading plans which work for them, so may be of limited value to anyone else.
 
However, I would say that the nearest you can get ( IMO) to an ABC system is the one that has been developed and generously donated free to W59 users - gfish's template. You have a clear indication of when to open a position, and which direction, in Template I. While Template II gives an exit signal, if you haven't been stoped out earlier.
 
My only question is where to place the initial stop whenever a position is opened ( suggestions welcomed) before the price starts to move. After that it is simply a case of trailing them behind the price movement and protecting your profit.
 
The only other thing you would need is a money management plan and I'm sure if you searched the forum you would find some discussions on that.
 
Hope my modest thoughts have been of help.
 
Cheers.

Gunslinger

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P: 11/6/2009 8:16:32 AM
nagib56

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Hi Gunslinger,

You are perfectly right with your answer concerning g's template I and II.

Concerning the money management plan there is an excellent one in Earik's Techniques for an Astrotrader
but you have to buy the book to get it. The chapter name is : Position Sizing.

Best

nagib56

“It's not whether you're right or wrong that's
important, but how much money you make
when you're right and how much you lose
when you're wrong”
George Soros

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 8:16:32 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 9:41:50 AM
gunslinger

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Thanks nagib,
 
I will need to get hold of a copy.
 
I know Feierabend wrote a script for a system some time ago. I gave it a try and it looked very good.
 
Have since been away from trading and have a new pc since then so will have to start over again with it. Worth trying out.
 
Regards,

Gunslinger

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 9:41:50 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 11:08:45 AM
thegrimreecer

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Hi CP,

Your question is actually really quite difficult to answer. Most of us have been on a huge searching mission for quite a few years now, and will likely continue on that mission until we die.

Do you know what sort of area may interest you most?
Astro?
Technical analysis?
Mathematics?
Geometry?
Fundamentals? (economic numbers, management methods / accounting ratios?)

Do you know what products you are most interested in?
Equities?
Bonds?
Commodities?

If you know the area that tickles your fancy most at this juncture in terms of market sector and style of analysis, this may help narrow your search. Once you have narrowed the field down a bit, decisions perhaps may become a touch easier regarding which literature you want to begin with. Just an idea.

Reece.

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 11:08:45 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 11:49:43 AM
HT

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Member Since: 7/16/2004

It's all within one's belief system

I believe that most trading books are worthless  - let's say 99% of them - but again that's just MY belief and I have a large trading library....




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMFdkH0zm60&feature=related

Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral coun$ry: giving handouts to entrenched corporate interests with armies of lobbyists while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. B(r)ought (to you) by the Koch brothers and the DeVos family (Blackwater(now Xe)/Amway)
Foolish ideas: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the bankers is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work  LOL
Bankers believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for the losses so if they’re too big to fail, make them smaller!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

View Revisions : 4   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 11:49:43 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 12:51:54 PM
KenC

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Hi, all,
 
There's a movie, The Edge, about a "book smart"  city-slicker millionaire ( played by Anthony Hopkins  ) whose plane is lost in the wilderness of the great North, and he is forced to ply his educated survivalist book learned wits against both a human enemy and a man-eating bear.  It's a really great movie & I highly recommend it.
 
In the movie, Hopkins kills the bear and outlives the human enemy, ultimately showing forgiveness and kindness to the human enemy.
 
In real life, the bear would have eaten both of the humans, and that would have been the end of it.
 
Now for the "teaching moment"   --  Book smarts will make you feel better about your self, but in no way will book smarts teach you how to successfully survive against the markets  -- be the market bear or bull.
 
Only "street smarts" gained by practical experience will truly be able to help you become a successful trader.   Sure the books can help prepare you for the real life experience, but there is no emotional factor derived from the experience of reading the book.  The market, on the other hand, will wrench your novice gut with fear or greed as soon as you click the mouse and put real money on the line.
 
So, read all you can, but don't mistake an author for a real-time mentor nor "book smarts" for "street smarts".   In the trading business, such a mistake costs money, lots more money than the price of any book or trading course.
 
Regards,

Ken Churchill
Wave59 Solution Provider
Montage

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 12:51:54 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 1:46:58 PM
chinapassage

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nice --- mentors i think is the key to success in any arena --- problem is good mentors would get bombarded or stay hidden ---

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 1:46:58 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/6/2009 2:32:56 PM
earik

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...or wear strange black cloaks and golden masks...

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/6/2009 2:32:56 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/7/2009 9:54:40 AM
SimonB

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Last Post: 5/26/2012
Member Since: 9/23/2008


Hi chinapassage ,



Have you ever asked yourself a question : “ WHY WELL OVER 90% OF TRADERS FAIL IN THE LONG RUN ? “



Do we believe that over 90% of all people who attempt trading stupid? Of course not, I know lot’s of very successful professionals who failed in trading. Are we to assume that over 90% of people did not prepare themselves, by reading, taking courses, etc ?, doubt it, I am sure there is a small percentage of people who dove right in, but for the most part I don’t think that lack of education is the reason for such astronomical failure rate.


What separates those few that are very successful in the business of trading from everyone else?  Is it in the tools?, books read?, seminars?, not to disregard above all together, there is some value in all of them, but if that was the case, how could some of the traders I know make multiple seven figures a year trading two moving averages crossover with one oscillator ?  There is a ton of material out there about trading, and as you know, most of it was not written by really good traders, most of it was written by very talented analysts, technicians, professors even, and yet those very same brilliant people did not have what it takes to be successful traders, they seem to know everything there is to know about trading, and yet can not do it. They have tremendous passion for Markets, but not what it takes to make money trading.


I am by no means advocating lack of education as a recipe to becoming a good trader, of course not, but there is something that is missing in most people who fail in trading, I am not going to pretend like I know what it is, I don’t, if you ask really successful traders how they do it, I don’t think they could give you a good explanations, best ones, like best ones in any other field, are simply Naturals.


Now, with all that said, of course not only Naturals make money in Markets, but in order for the rest to make it in trading, it is important to understand what really important elements in trading approach are.  The truth of the matter is, that all this stuff you read in trading books for the most part is wrong.  We often read and hear that there are many different ways to make money in Markets, now there may be many technical variations, but there is only one way to make “real” money trading, and that is Market’s way. We hear a lot of advice like take part of your position of for a point or two, and move rest to break even, and never let your winner become a loser.  All these sayings sound logical, even though they are some of the worst things a trader can do.  Market does not care where your entry point is, and Market also does not care that you feel comfortable with your strategy, of course you do, most people would, lock in a small profit, and bring the rest to break even, heck, that makes all kinds of sense, but what happens most of the time in reality ? you get your small profit, and then get stopped out on the rest 9 out of 10 times because your stop is too tight, and five minutes later watch the Market move another 12 points but without you.  And all that happened why? because you took “sound” advice, and did not let your “winner” become half a point loser, and that is the same advice that 90% of traders take, because it gives them that safe feeling that they can not lose money anymore on this trade, does 90% number ring a bell ? ,J. >>


Since most of the people who give trading advice are not successful traders themselves, they tell you what makes sense to them, but that is most of the time what does not work out well in real trading. 


Few weeks back, “g” was kind enough to share good trigger template with the Forum, and over the next few weeks, we have seen hundred’s of posts, that quite honestly, made me sad. People were not just giving thanks for a shared technique, but all kinds of desperate traders seeing it as salvation, and “holly grail” for their trading, and some of those names I have seen on the boards for a very long time.  Now, I use a few very good trigger templates for a long time now, unfortunately, mine are all built on volume charts, and as soon as Wave59 will be able to create volume charts, I will be sharing them for sure, but any solid trading style consists of three parts, most important by far is trade management once we are in the trade, second is solid set-up, and the best trigger comes in distant third, again, not to take anything away from ”g’s” generosity, that is just a fact, yet out of those three, most failing traders concentrate most on the trigger, I have no idea why, maybe because it’s a part of the approach that calls for action J.


Best trigger template will chop you up most days, but when trigger is taken after a proven set-up, odds for successful trade go up exponentially, in the 80% plus range.  And “g” himself warned people about trying to automate trading with his template, saying that results will not be impressive, as an experienced trader he understands exactly when to take the trigger and when not to.  Larry Williams, a big advocate of trade management, proved over and over, how using the same triggers but managing trades differently, makes a difference of millions of dollars over the years, trading one ( it was large SP contract at that time ) lot, by adjusting exits only.


Traders learn all kinds of techniques to time CIT's or continuation entry, just to be satisfied with small gain. A good trader, based on today’s Market conditions, will make 2K/day trading 4 lots, not twenty. That is the only way, a trader with an average account size can manage risk, give Market breathing room while waiting for his trade to work, and not sweating every tick and being thrown out of the trade because every tick on twenty lots is way too much fluctuation for their account size.


Finally, I will try to answer your question, J.  I have read Neal’s books, and there is a great deal of knowledge in them, and in all that information, ( I hope you don’t take it the wrong way Neal ) the most important statement/question, which really pertains to every day trading : “ CAN YOU STAY IN THE TRADE AS LONG AS BARS KEEP GOING YOUR WAY ? “  The answer to this seemingly simple question is the difference between long term success and failure.


Whichever book you read, you need to be able to extract usable information for trading. Select, test and practice techniques which you will be able to trust without any hesitation, thinking, or procrastinating, there is no time for it during real time trading. As good as technique can be for someone else, if you don’t trust it enough to pull the trigger every single time, it has no use to you.  Unfortunately, you will most likely never find a trading style, which at the same time will make you comfortable, and allow you to make “real” money, you have to develop and use approach that works in the Markets, and train yourself to be comfortable with it over time, and If that means trading one lot for a long while, so be it, It will serve you much better in the long run then trading larger size but in the wrong way. Gann said: “ Real money in Markets are made during large moves” and that translates to day trading also. The most important skill to master, once we are in a trade is “sitting” , best techniques are wasted if you do not have patience and resolve to let you trade work out to its full potential. Overwhelming amount of time that trader dedicates to educating oneself should be spent on seeking out information in educating materials on how to maximize return of every single trade, that is where the hidden success is found over time. >>


Sorry about the length of my post, I am sure it will not be very popular with a lot of people here, but as someone who has been trading for a long time, my objective was to be honest, and not necessarily score popularity points, and hopefully reduce learning curve for some novice traders. It is very easy to get “ analysis paralysis “ in this business, too much information can do more harm than good, where after a while, things begin to contradict them self’s, and make you virtually unable to do anything.


So read on, take seminars etc, but use some common sense and logic, trader’s work does not end with closing bell, examine every day’s activity, your trades, and select educational venue which will help you not only get in to a trade at the right time, but get every possible tick based on the time frame you trade, you will be pleasantly surprised with what Markets will give you if you learn to speak their “ language” .  Don’t’ subscribe blindly to the idea that there are thousand’s of ways to make money in Markets, at the end of the day, in principle, there is only one, participate in large moves, I have never met a rich scalper, J


Whether you agree with what I had to say or not, give it benefit of the doubt, as you become more and more successful in the business of trading, more and more of it will make sense.


 


Best,       


> >

Simon B.

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/7/2009 9:54:40 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/7/2009 2:21:49 PM
HT

Member

Total Posts: 2,502
Last Post: 5/25/2012
Member Since: 7/16/2004

WOW


EXCELLENT POST

THX


Best of it


====================================================================
  CAN YOU STAY IN THE TRADE AS LONG AS BARS KEEP GOING YOUR WAY ?
====================================================================


That says it all one has to know about trading!

Mama does not know but there is nothing new under the sun
An immoral coun$ry: giving handouts to entrenched corporate interests with armies of lobbyists while seeking to cut those to hungry children, struggling families and frail seniors. Shame on everybody who allows demagogues, xenophobes, sectarians and homophobes to not only see their party as a sanctuary but as a place to rise to its top. B(r)ought (to you) by the Koch brothers and the DeVos family (Blackwater(now Xe)/Amway)
Foolish ideas: Regulation is always bad, what’s good for the bankers is good for America, tax cuts are the universal elixir, trickle-down economics work  LOL
Bankers believe in capitalism when it comes to pocketing the profits and socialism when it comes to paying for the losses so if they’re too big to fail, make them smaller!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

View Revisions : 3   |    Posted:  11/7/2009 2:21:49 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/9/2009 2:43:22 AM
afl

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Last Post: 2/19/2012
Member Since: 3/27/2009

BRAVO Simon,

Finally, after 20000 posts one person has been brave enough to stand up and state publicly:

REAL TRADING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FORECASTING !!!!!!

Snake oil salesmen and pseudo scientists make all gullible  believe that the more exotic and the more expensive they are the better their forecasts are !

Think for a moment. If you were to run a mom-and-pop operation would you ever use any kind of DUMB forecast ? or rather watch your cash register and your shelves.

To trade successfully so little is needed: just your eyes (DO NOT SHUT THEM) and a little bit your brain too. The rest is what Simon said.

afl


Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/9/2009 2:43:22 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/9/2009 10:11:12 AM
mostovic

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Total Posts: 37
Last Post: 11/10/2009
Member Since: 12/21/2008

Interesting post Simon, thanks. I was also a bit amazed by reaction of some "old-timmers" in G`s template like "i finally found a HG thing". Again, dont want to say that G`s template is not good, on the contrary I think its one of the best indicator based setup out there - still you can find lots of similiar to this one and really its not the case anyway.

As to the rest of your post Simon, I would agree in general with what your saying. Still, I belive that I do not know the reason why so many people fail to make money on the markets - but... if trading is very individual thing then maybe every fail is also individual case and it is very hard to generalize and thus to make a solid conclusion.
The other thing is these large moves. What are large moves really? Is it 20 point or 2 points or maybe 34 points? I belive that its not the case in the lenght but the relationship between risk and reward. Large move is when your risk is much smaller than your potential target, this is large move for me. And by this I dont care if its scalping or swing trading.
best
mostovic

(sorry for my english, learning everyday)

mostovic

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/9/2009 10:11:12 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 11/9/2009 11:22:32 AM
SimonB

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Total Posts: 949
Last Post: 5/26/2012
Member Since: 9/23/2008

Thanks HT, afl,

afl,

I do believe forecasting is very important, and that is why I use Wave59, I believe it is the best software out there for forecasting.
Without any kind of forecasting, when trading CIT’s, how would we know our entries, and once in a trade,our targets ?


But you are right, in a world of real trading, mastering a great forecasting tool is not a final destination, it should be a stepping stone
on the way to cultivating a good trader, and based on so many posts in recent months and weeks, it seems that for the most part,
good forecasters are being cultivated here.  And that is great if that is one’s intent, but if most people here desire to become good
traders, they have to eventually grasp that successful trading encapsulates different unrelated skills, and they will have to master all
of them on the way to profitable trading for a living, and not get caught up in trying to master every forecasting technique under the sun,
but instead, select a few that they understand, trust, and can build a good trading approach around, and truly understand,
that their bottom line will not increase by being right on CIT, or their forecasting skills, it will increase once they learn to trade.

Thanks mostovic,

The reason for my post was to try to shed some light, and hopefully shorten a learning curve to all who are looking in to educational
materials to better their trading.  Like I said, there is good value in all of them, my point was that no one can possibly incorporate even
a small part of all that is available in every day trading.  So I was trying to take away just a bit of attention from forecasting, and shift
it to that part of trading that is really responsible for lion share of one’s profits, actual trading approach, and those most difficult skills
to master between entry and exit. 

As far as the large moves go, if one is a day trader, I will use ES in my example, and Market has an ATR ( average trading range ) daily of
15-20 points, and your average profitable trade is 2-3 points, you see what I mean.  In my experience, a good trading approach will allow
one to capture aprox. 60% of daily range in one or two trades. missing first and last 20% of the range. Not written in stone of course,
but aprox. guide lines of what to aim for.

You said that it is relationship between risk and reward that matters most, ok, I agree, so if your average trade has 3 points of profit,
then you are saying that you are risking 1 point on every trade ?  Now you and I both know that you would be stopped out on nearly
every trade if that was the case, so if you are using 2 – 3 point stop, and grabbing 3 points of profit per trade, where is your 1 to 3,
or even 1 to 2 risk reward ratio ?

Again, common sense and logic are very important tools for a trader, there is another “dangerous” saying out there: “ Take care of your
loses, and Profits will take care of them self’s “  I for one, have no idea what that means.  Of course risk management is one of the most
important factors in trading, but how it relates to where one exits a trade to capture lion share of the move, I don’t get.  Controlling
losses is very important, but no matter how small your loses are, without good profits you will not be around trading for too long.

There is a balance of fear and greed that needs to be optimized in trading, once NFL team has a lead, and starts playing prevent defense,
Is when they wind up loosing their lead and quite often the game.

As I am writing this, I was triggered in to a long trade on ES this morning, I am still long, because my work is showing me that ES needs to make it
to at least 1083.  I don’t know if I will get my price or not, but I refuse to “waste”, what I consider good technical work on 3 point trade, and if my
target will come in only once out of three trades, I know that in the long run, profits will be larger by making 10 points 30% of the time, then making
3, 60% of the time.

Best,             

Simon B.

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  11/9/2009 11:22:32 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post

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